Wednesday's woes

I don't understand why when a pitcher is pitching well, he is taken out for a reliever. Then Joel comes in and he is pitching well and they take him out and put in Jones. Just because you have a closer you don't need to use him every night. Especially when they come in and blow a game. Rodney and Jones do it more then anyone. I feel they both should go.

Another thing that may have gotten some folks off Jonesie's case is, if you view any of the 2006 season highlight videos, you see Todd successfully closing out nearly every important game.

I do have a question about Rodney, if anyone cares to take a crack at answering it. I've been working with some video gaming people, and we're having a tough time pinning down exactly what pitches he does throw. The general consensus is fastball and changeup, but here I see Buck saying palmball and slider. Rod Allen called it a trick pitch. I know it can't just be a standard changeup because hitters seem unable to get to it. Any thoughts on this, anyone?

It is nice to have all these online blogs and boards. I used to work in an office full of women who didn't give a hoot about baseball so I had to keep my ramblings to myself. Scary, huh? Now I'm in my own office so there would still be no one if not for the internet.

--Rich

I had a power surge on Sunday morning due to the storm I guess. Seems the surge protector didn't work because they can be hit and disabled during an electrical storm. Must have lost mine last year during an intense electrical storm I recall.(Then what's the use in having them?) Fortunately I only lost my power supply and am up an running again. Well now I've learned what the inside of a computer looks like but the trade off was missing the last 4 games on mlb.com. Not a good trade...like Purnell Goldy for Ted Williams. Fun catching up on the blogs though. Guess I'm glad I missed today's game, that must have been sickening to watch. Jason, I understand the day to day game plan, and I have no problem with Jones being the closer. I've always supported him and continue to. I don't think switching him with Zumaya works as well as some have suggested. And I think suggestions of getting rid of Jones are ludicrous, given the paucity of reliable relievers that there are out there. He's 7 for 8 right now. You gotta take that. Rivera blew one big time the other night. He's the "end all" right? It happens. What I do disagree with is this unrelenting dogmatic approach to pitching, pitch counts and handling relievers. I don't point the finger at JL. All managers do it. In the case of today(and I didn't even see the game) Why couldn't Jeremy have been left in to pitch the 8th? I'm not taking pitch count as an answer/excuse. It's his game, he's dominating...never take for granted that the next guy is going to do better. Anyway then I would have had Zumaya pitch the 9th for the save. Jones would still be the closer but he doesn't have to close in every save situation. If Zumaya doesn't have to set up, he's in the position to save. Simple equation. Let tomorrow take care of itself...pounce and finish the thing. I mentioned this before; Jeremy could have pitched the 10th in his last start against Haliday and that game just might have had a chance to end differently. And again, a tie game in the 10th inning is not the right time to bring in Rodney...that's twice now in a week. And I still like Rodney, but man, give him a chance to get his "mojo" (whatever)back before you throw him in the fire again...goodness... 9-6 and they haven't even hit yet except for Polanco who seems to be single handedly keeping the offense going. Thank you Placido!

I agree completely with your first sentence Sparky. That's the point I was trying to make in my blog. But that's as far as we go in agreement. Jones and Rodney are both integral to the success of this team; Jones more so imo. Rich,as for your question about Rodney, I don't have a clue. I can't always see the difference in speed in his pitches, watching the game in a 4x6 box. Sometimes that "ephus" pitch looks like it starts and stops 2 or 3 times on the way to the plate, but often I really can't see that much difference between his pitches. One thing's for sure, when he can't throw anything for a strike he's not very effective, guys just sit on him or, worse, walk. JL should use him in the 6th and 7th innings for a while or maybe longer.

Should have included Curtis with Placido as far as carrying the team hitting. Still, 17 SO's, man... Pudge has no walks. His average of .293 equals his OBP. I think he must feel cheated out of his cuts when he has to walk.

I think you can trace the problems Jones had today and Rodney has had so far this season to exactly what Buck said, the bullpen is getting into hitters counts. Jones needs to throw strikes, he gets hit but our D is good enough to help out. Now Rodney relies on the change, if he can't locate the fastball then hitters sit on the change up.

As far as Bonderman and pitch count, remember he pitched an extra month and a half last year. I don't want to see his pitch count elecated because I plan on him pitching another month and a half extra. We have a bullpen to close out those situation and save the young arms.

One last thought. Placido's OBP is .394 and his average is .381. One walk and only 2 K's. He is maybe the only guy in baseball with these strange numbers. He may well be on his way to a batting title. Right now I think he's seeing volley balls when everyone else is seeing golf balls. He's a pure smart contact hitter, and I'd compare him to Rod Carew or Nellie Fox. I'll take 8 guys like him anyday....the innings would go on forever. His eyes and bat are so good that he can lay off the really bad pitches but he can also reach out and put pitches out of the strike zone in play. Hence few walks and K's. It's a rarity. Pretty limiting to an opposing pitcher's strategy, other than pitching around him for the next guy. Right now I'd like to see Carlos behind him in the 3rd slot. Carlos has 12 walks and a .388 OBP despite having a .255 BA. These 2 guys back to back would create the best chance of generating a run every time up.

We'll have to disagree on that Jezuit. With decent weather the post season should only last one month tops. As far as Bonderman goes, I don't know what he's saying to JL but if he wants to stay in, let him. You first have to get to the playoffs, then worry about gas. But I do agree with you that a pitcher should never be, or allowed to be overworked to the detriment of his career or injury. Jeremy, or any of the pitchers could and should be rested when they needed it.

You are right, it was only a month, but he did throw 290 some extra pitches.

It is the bullpen's job to finish the game. A W means more to Bonderman that a CG.

Jason, any word on Mesa, is he going to hit the DL? Who comes up?

Good discussion here for an off day, enjoying it.

I can see both sides of the issue with Bonderman's last two starts. I think I would have been inclined to have him pitch the eighth yesterday, or the tenth Friday. One or the other, not both. For what it's worth, I saw Bondo and Hernandez in a conversation after the seventh, then Leyland walked over, said something, and walked away. It appeared he put a stop to any talk of pitching the eighth. Or so it seemed.

Actually, I can't complain about it. Zumuya the eighth and Jones the ninth makes all kinds of baseball sense.

I definitely agree that Rodney needs to come in earlier, so there's some quick backup if he struggles. If they're going to keep him, he does need to pitch. At some point.

We're 9-6 and the White Sox are coming to town. Is this fun or what? Oh, and congrats (I guess) to Buehrle.

Marty, you want to get one of those surge suppressors that have a warning light. Green if it's okay, and red if it's been sacrificed to a power surge. Not sure if they work, since mine has always shown green, but it's a thought.

Thanks Rich. I heard about those and I'm going to get one.

Sorry about that Jezuit. I was nit picking on the month and a half thing. You're right; it is the bullpen's job to finish. And I'm sure Jeremy would much rather get a win than a complete game. CG's 20-30 years ago used to be an important pitching statistic Today they are so rare they've become all but meaningless. I have no interest in complete games but I just thought Bonderman might have been able to at least start the 8th yesterday and, had he been able to finish it quickly, Zumaya could have pitched the 9th. Or as Sparky said at the top of this blog, step outside the box once in a while and let Zumaya pitch 2 innings for the save. But....I suppose there is wisdom in sticking to a proven formula and specific player assignments, and in doing so, keeping the players more focused on what is expected of them day to day.

I agree with your you last statement. The Tigers have a formula and they need to stick to it. If Jones gets that double play, we aren't talking about this. Jones is our closer and he needs to have that in his head everynight. These are professional athletes and sometimes you need to either stroke their ego (Jones you ARE the closer) or you need to keep them hungry (Zoom you have the stuff to close, but you will set up). Leyland does a great job at both.

On another note, is this Durbin's last shot at staying in the rotation? Who do we bring in if he gets knocked around? Personal I think he has to do no worse then 6 innings of 2 run ball to stay in the rotation. If he can't, I think you knock him back to the bullpen (he is out of options) send seay back to Toledo and bring up Minor.

Re Durbin, I hate to say anyone is getting his "last chance" but the fact is the guy will have to turn in a quality start at some point. I think he gets more opportunities than just tonight, but a time would come when it's make or break. If that happened, I would suggest former starter Jason Grilli (amid howls of protest) as an option for the rotation. He has good stuff and what problems he has had is entering mid-inning and not quite shutting down the opposition. He's usually effective over a multi-inning performance and could give you a number of quality starts. Again, of course, that changes the dynamic of the bullpen. And what of Roman Colon? Where does he stand with the neck problem? I realize he gets mixed reviews, but he's an option for the bullpen when healthy. After Zumaya and Jones, there is no one dominant pitcher to choose from, but there are several good arms available.

I mentioned in another post that I felt Zoom and Jones both had the temperment for the role of closer or short relief man and that Rodney doesn't.

Yeah Jones blew one save and one can justify that by saying 1 out of 8 ain't bad. My point about this particular save was that it was an extremely important one to obtain--and he didn't do it.

I also thought that it made sense to me to allow Zumaya to close out the 9th since he had used an economy of pitches in the 8th, was already warmed up and comfortable on the mound. I don't think that JL has to be so prescriptive in the way a game is closed. Leave Zoom in to dispatch the Royals in the 8th, give Jones an extra day rest and let Zumaya taste the nectar of saving a game for his mates. After all he is being groomed to be a closer isn't he?

As to sticking to a formula and Jones getting a double play. Well theres a point to be made there to. Yes, Jones does get guys to pound the ball in the dirt for potential double plays. This overlooks the fact that the "formula" for Jones is to "start" the last inning and not come in the middle of it. This means that though he sometimes gets the double play he is also generally responsible for putting the men on bases in the first place. So it's kind of, forgive the pun, hit or miss. Either a guy hits into a double play (of Jones' making) or the ball finds its way through the hole for another hit.

I like Jones, but I don't think he is the dominating, intimidating closer that a club needs to go al the way. Double plays are nice but sometimes you want someone to come in that won't let the other team hit the ball at all. There has been talk that Zumaya is the closer of the future--I think the future is very near and very clear. I think we will see the transition of him becoming the team's closer before the end of the year.

Leyland may have these guys convinced what their "roles" are but circumstances will dictate what the team needs.

Humberto Sanchez is undergoing Tommy Jones says the New York Post, even with his struggles the Sheffield trade just got a whole lot better.

Dan, I think it would take a lot for Jones to be pushed out of the closer role this year. Its his job, Leyland is going to stick with him. When he throws strikes he is a very effective, not dominate, closers. Wednesday he didn't throw strikes and that hurt him. I personally would rather have Jones ground balls over Zumaya's fly balls in the the 9th.

Speaking of throwing strikes, I think the success of the bullpen relies on Rodney's ability to throw them. Leyland likes him and will keep going to him. Its up to him to throw strikes and set up that dominate change up.

I have to agree with Jezuits, I think that you are all forgetting that Jones saved 37 ganes last year. He is a good effective closer, not everyone pitches 100 miles per hour. I think that Zumaya will eventually be a good closer as well, but someone is more likely to take him deep than Jones right now. Ya it stinks that he blew the save the other day, but unfortunately it is going to happen.

Going to the game tonight, hopefully Durbin can figure it all out.

I've watched Rodney very closely, in fact my first post on this blog last year was about Rodney. I think his delivery prevents him from throwing the fastball for strikes on anything close to a consistent basis. He just opens up and lets it fly. I ran into him outside PNC Park last July and he seems like a nice, quiet type fellow. I just don't think he can get by on what he does now.

Whatever the definition of dominant is, I'd consider Jones to be dominant in that he's rarely in a hitter's count. Bob Wickman is like that. He also brings a ton of experience into a save situation.

So now Sanchez is undergoing Tommy John? What's up with all of these? Maybe they should have prophylactic Tommy John upon being drafted. :-)

Grude...........we'll see about Mr Durbin tonight, huh? Not asking for a shutout or anything, but just a solid performance.

"Solid" for me, would be get to at least the 5th inning, without losing his composure.

If Drubin doesn't aamake it that far, and has another bad outting, I wonder how many more chances JL will give him?

In the immortal words of Jim Price.....I Yai Yai!
Geez I hope Sheff is getting good book sales. He is not doing much in terms of self-promotion.

I missed most of the game tonight but it looked like the Tigs couldn't make adjustments to the bullpen changes.

Durbin tossed up a couple taters tonight and you know, that just what don't do. He's got 1 start left before JL is forced to look elsewhere.

I see they caled up a new name to me, Aquilino Lopez, looks like he did he pretty nice job

Grilli got 5 guys out and let 5 guys get on. I don't see we can expect much better from him as he just doesn't seem to have the juice.

Polanco comes through big again after a couple of poor at bats by Granderson and Pudge only to be left stranded by Sheffield--with the fans shouting encouragement for the struggling veteran. Class act by the fans anyway.

It is obviously too early to panic but we need someone to come in and pick up the slack for veterans like Sheffield, Casey, Ordonez, Monroe and Inge who have been pretty disappointing so far. Even though Inge is struggling he has as many HRs as Sheffield, Ordonez, Monroe and Casey combined.

The DL is growing but at least the last addition's absence is not going to be too painful.

Still, the record is not bad. We've been more than fortunate with some of our outcomes and if the boys start getting the results and numbers they have in the past all things can only improve.

Well I was at the game tonight, another disappointment. Now it is impossible to tell a ball from a strike from where we sit, but at times Durbin was doing pretty well, it appeared that he stopped throwing strikes. Maybe he really is a middle relief kind of guy, one time through the lineup.

Once again they almost do it in the ninth, but not quite. I mean to tell you it was loud in there the fans were yelling for Sheffield to do something only to have the air go right out of the building. I still cant figure what is going on with these bats. I now it is early still but the only thing that I can remember is that last year it was one game that kept us from the division title.

As it turned out, tonight was not about pitching but about the total lack of offense. If not for the Sox misplaying Maggs' "clutch" pop fly, the Tigers get one run on the Inge homer. When does this stop? Or does it? They looked like this last August and September. Monroe gets clutch hits but he's batting .200. Sheffield will have to hit .500 for roughly three weeks to reach his normal numbers. Ordonez just doesn't scare anyone. Casey has been a total offensive bust so far. Thames doesn't have a position. And there are guys in Toledo.......

I hate to say this, but Polanco should have laid out on two pivotal hits in this game. At least knock them down, keep the run(s) from scoring.

Grilli has been better, but not as bad as the numbers make it appear. Lopez seemed to catch the Sox off guard. Durbin squandered a chance to solidify his spot in the rotation with his shakey sixth inning.

But the bottom line is what has to be termed as lousy hitting. I wonder if this ever changes?

Well, back at it tomorrow.

Excellent summary Rich. Chicago didn't show much either except decent late inning relief. Neither team deserved the win but somebody had to get it.

Sheffield is hitting .125?

.125!?!

Last year, it took until June to figure out, that Pudge hitting third was NOT the best thing for this team.

Please do not tell me, we are going to wait until June to get Sheffield out of the middle of the order, this year.

If he isn't up to .250 by mid-May, I hope JL finds a way to drop Sheff to 7th. Of course, who would take his place in the middle of the order?

I know we are only one tenth of the way through the season, but it may be time to look at changing tactics a little bit. Small ball, bunting in the early innings, (I would say hit-n-run, but we don't make enough contact for that), something.......anything.

In all my years as a baseball fan, I cannot remember an entire team slugging like crazy together(hence, the one ten run "outburst" per week), and then slumping together(how many games has the team gotten double digits in hits this year? Not many, methinks).

Unexplainable, and the coaches have gotta be pulling their hair out.

Of course, it's not just the Tigers. ARod is having a record breaking April, while Pujols looks awful at the plate.

Tamp Bay looks like the '27 Yankees(okay, a little hyperbole for ya this morn), and Ryan Howard couldn't hit a volleyball.

Sheffield, Monroe, Inge, Thames(ALL of the power in the lineup) and Casey..........automatic outs for the first 15 games.

Ouch.

Excuse me while I whine:

I said this all last year, and let me say it again.

When in a tough spot, the other team only needs to hit the ball to Inge.

Yes, I know it was a tough bounce. And yes, I know if the game is 7-1, he'll make a Robinson-type play, that'll get him on BBTN.

But, if the game is close, and a play needs to be made, he time and again proves he cannot get it done.

Whine over.

JL i sgoing to have to bench a couple of guys. He can belive all he wants that they will come out of it but he simply cannot afford to have 4 sub .200 bat averages in the lineup at the same time.
Ty Cobb once hit .424 in a single season. That is more than adding the averages of Inge Casey and Sheffield.

Kind of indicates how dreadful the situation is doesn't it?

Ordonez hitting at a brisk .250 looks like a hitting machine compared to these guys.

This game feels like we are going to waste another grand slam. But, as JL likes to say, "to tell the truth", the Tigers are playing like one-hit wonders. They cannot seem to put a concerted attack together. They look brutal again today and the 4 runs scored are an illusion really.

Dan................so true!

What have the Tigers got, 5 hits? Dismal.

For Sunday, may I suggest(and Sunday only):

Sit Sheff, and play Thames

Sit Inge, and (shudder) play Nefarious

Sit Casey, move Guillen to first, and play Infante

I think it is actually time to consider calling up Shelton and Perez.

JL seems to like to throw Rodney in the 10th. He is a stubborn old coot ain't he? I wonder what information he is waiting for to determine that

he can't count on the guy.

The team is in disarray right now with many problem areas to correct.

Maroth and Durbin look uncomfortable with the starting roles.

Bullpen has been unreliable.

Bonderman can't win a game if he gives up as little as 1 run.

Back to back to back hitting has been almost non-existent.

Less than average baserunning.

Has Pudge thrown anybody out stealing yet this year?

Inge, Monroe, Casey and Sheffield 0 for 15 today.

I think I need to take a holiday at least till May---this is too disgusting to watch anymore.

Wednesday woes, Friday woes, Saturday woes. I am throwing my hands up right now. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the whole game I guess I missed two of the errors, which I heard cost us 2 or 3 runs. I can't really complain about errors this season they have been really really good. Best in MLB until today.

It just seems that the bull pen is really out of kilter, and the batting is a bit out of WHACK. (pun intended) But lets get real Rodney is not why they loose this game, he just finished it off.

By the way I checked Pudge has thrown one out.

LET GO TIGERS

Missed the game thank goodness. Would have liked to watch the 1st inning. Ha. I know, nobody likes a sarcastic wise guy. Keep in mind it's too early to panic yet but...I think I've already mentioned these two things 3 or 4 times already. How about BATTING CARLOS 3RD and NOT putting Rodney in in a TIE game, 10th inning for a while. Carlos behind Placido WILL produce runs. Too many huge contracts and too many huge egos. How can you bench guys making...I can't remember how much nor do I care? It's too early to panic yet but is there any room for flexibility here? Poor Rodney needs a little R and R. His confidence is below sea level and JL shouldn't keep piling the pressure on him. Although very good, this is not the best bullpen in baseball and there will be a whole lot more stress put on them if the offense doesn't receive a transfusion soon. Can Omar play 3rd? Shelton and Perez are probably pretty hungry at this point. They'll get hungrier. I'm done and I feel much better now doctor.

Everybody reaches a point....and we all seemed to have reached it at the same time.

Here's what I'd do: call up Chris Shelton TONIGHT and have him start at first TOMORROW. Thames into left in place of Monroe, with Garland pitching. Infante to start at third in place of Inge. Shuffle the lineup, getting Sheffield out of the three hole until he starts hitting. He's killing us. All this for tomorrow's game.

Re today's game, you can make a case for a bad hop on the potential triple play bouncer to Inge. It hit the lip of the grass cut. On the other hand, giving the ball to Rodney is giving the game away. We all knew it, didn't we? I would have inserted Ledezma at the start of the tenth and left him in there until the game was over. You need a sixth inning guy tomorrow, that's when you put Rodney in. And you have Lopez, Grilli and nearly everyone else available tomorrow.

Interesting managerial approaches so far this weekend. Ozzie seems to be playing it for now, while Leyland continues to be playing for the long haul. Can't really say who's correct at this point.

I wouldn't be worried about the hitting except that these same guys produced the same results for the final 50 games of last season. So will the real Tigers please stand up?

JL, ol' bud, you've got to shake something up. Shelton.......Shelton.......Shelton....shel.....ton......shel................ton......

We agree on many points, Rich.

If this was a team of hitters who were connecting, we could afford to carry Casey just for his fielding.

However, the team can't afford another hole in the line up. At least, not right now.

I don't know the repurcussions of calling up Shelton. Can they send him back down this season if need be, without risking losing him?

I think another 4 or 5 games of this, we're gonna find out if Sheffield is truly a "cancer" or not. If he is still hitting below a buck and a quarter, he should volunteer to hit 7th. If he is forced to go down, and if he spouts off, it could get a little ugly.

If we could call up Shelton(and send down Nefarious), my Sunday line up would look like this:

Pudge C

Polanco 2B

Guillen SS

Maggs RF

Thames DH

Shelton 1B

Monroe LF

Infante 3B

Granderson CF

Time to sit some folks.

I like it Scratch.

Scratch, I don't think there is a way in ****, nor di I think it should happen, that Sheffield gets sent down. The only guys that could go down are Perez, Rabelo or maybe Thames. I'm not saying I think Thames should go but he is languishing on the bench. Shelton could fill in behind the plate if Pudge should have a problem and Perez is redundant anyway. They also could send down another pitcher but the way the bullpen is going I doubt JL would consider that.

I think we will see Shelton and not Timo Perez. Though Perez is hitting the co ver off the ball in Toledo.

Durbin is close to getting replaced by Vasquez.

Dan,
I said NEFARIOUS gets sent down, not Sheffield..........lol.

Sheeeeeesh.

Ya know I love ya, Dan.

I know I have said many times, I am not an Inge fan. But even I am shocked, that he said that "no one could have made that play", when he botched the double(or triple?)play.

What, they don't teach infielders to keep their glove low, and use their body for the bad high-hop, anymore? I thought a fielder was supposed to put himself in position from the ground up? The misplay by Inge was an "ole", the ball played to the side. A possible "gold glove" infielder does NOT get eaten up by a ball that bounced LOWER. When played correctly, the only "bad hop" that can get by him, is the higher one, over the shoulder.

He's flashy, but I've never liked his mechanics, which is why I believe he continues to struggle when a routine(or semi0routine)play is needed.

Eh............nothing a 5 game winning streak won't cure.

I misread ya' scratch. I was going by "if he is forced to go down and he spouts off".
Sorry.

Tough Times in Tiger Town.

Inge saw the double (or triple) play and messed up the play. That happens to a lot of infielders. The Tigers were poor in the field today. In fact, there are people in Chicago who only see Detroit play when it's against their Sox and they must wonder how the heck the Tigers win all those other games.

You probably can't "send down" many of the players on the team. They may have to release Neifi if they can't trade him. He's not being used, and it ties their hands for personnel movement. Either that or play him. Right now, he's basically a pinch-bunter.

You notice how nearly all the Tiger hitters look like they're hitting against Bonderman, regardless of who they're facing? A slider, any slider, and they're meat. Also, why doesn't Sheffield take a whack at that first pitch fastball he gets? He takes it, then they start toying around, which results in a number of walks, but no hits.