Is Tigers offense waiting for pitching to win games?

By now, Delmon Young’s quote about the layoff affecting Detroit’s offense in Game 1 of the World Series has gone viral.

“Offense? We were down 4-0 quick, so you can’t blame the offense,” said Young.

Or as Young later said, “We were out of the game before we had our second at-bat. Didn’t matter if we had two months off or we played yesterday. We were down 4-0 quick.”

The Tigers were facing Barry Zito. When asked what made Zito so effective last night, Miguel Cabrera’s first words were, “The run support.”

The Tigers won the ALCS on the strength of their starting pitching. They scored a total of four runs from innings one through six of the first three games until breaking open Game 4 with a four-run fourth. As well as Tigers starters have pitched, and as long as they’ve been pitching well, it begs the question: Has the Tigers offense gotten into a wait-and-see mode?

Jim Leyland doesn’t believe that’s the case.

“I don’t worry about that,” Leyland said. “No excuses … but what worries me to death a little bit, to be honest with you, is the layoff that the pitchers have had. That’s what worries me more than the offense.”

In fact, he thought his offense had better swings than their results suggested.

“We did everything right, and I think that actually showed up in our swings last night,” Leyland said. “I thought we had pretty good swings to be honest with you.”

The two catches by left fielder Gregor Blanco, especially on Miguel Cabrera’s third-inning liner to left-center, were huge.

146 Comments

This is a tweet from Danny Knobler:
When pitching coach Jeff Jones went to mound, Verlander told him: “All you did (by coming out there) was get the crowd really into it.”

That’s disturbing too…..especially Justin when you gave up a homer immediately afterward. Arrogent or what.

No doubt, pitching our supposed strength was the biggest problem….but let’s face it 1 run through 8..not good enough miguel or delmon. Just because you were down early by 4 that doesn’t mean you throw in the towel and say screw it. You as professional hitters making millions try to cut away as the deficeit. Those comments are disturbing to me…..the blame game.

For anyone interested, you can listen to Dan & Jim if you have a subscription to MLB audio. $19.99 and it starts with spring training games right up to the end including postseason.

Well……so after our first at bats, Bumgarner was givrn what 3 or 4. generous strike calls. Let’s see how he calls them for Doug. If he gets screwed as Justin did I may as well go to bed now, because my language will have me in divorce court by the end of the night.

The pitcher over the thrower

Well he is at least human..

Well Doug got 1 generous strike zone.

You gotta be kidding me….wasted opportunity

Lamont the best 3rd base coach in MLB.

For the other team. It was Fielder

Interesting topic. Something I said earlier today.
Gino Lamont –why won’t somebody hire this guy to get him out of Detroit.
What is wrong with him? PF can’t run 270 feet. And with no out?
Absolutely stupid.

Never the first out a home

Nope…I don’t think it was a good idea to send him, but also a bad slide. He slid right into him instead of a swipe tag or probably would of had a better chance standing up. Prince gave him a big target.

He must know Prince cant run or slide. He is pylon

yep…I don’t think he should of sent him but Fielder, however Fielder needs to thinl about what the hell he’s doing he makes what 23 mil a year!

Leyland, Jones, Lamont: the only conspiracy against Detroit

OMG, he got hit in the head.

The first one was in the middle

So dude gets hit on the head and the freaking umpire squeezes him. I’m not talking about pitches that are borderline I’m talking about actual freaking strikes! I hate umpires!

Not the same strike zone…. Can we please start to get the breaks…

Fister looks damn good swinging that bat. We are pretty lucky to have this guy. He’s all heart.

Didn’t look uncomfortable at all.

Well we got a break. The Giants didn’t score after a head shot and a walk that should not have happened. But they came out scoreless. The way things have been going for them it was almost a certainty they would benefit.

We caught a little break.

Only way Doug was going to get a breather was take pitches himself.

Put your bats on the ball, get hits and runs.

Now, it is time to steal

Appearently not?….:(. Honestly can’t buy a thing right now. Cabrera’ looked like he had a sure double and still not convinced Infante was out. And believe me I’m not convinced Buck and Craver know what the hell they are talking about (they didn’t even question the bad call by the ump last night with that foul ball that was called fair off of Delmon last night)

The outcome was bad. Still was the right play with Fielder there.

It was safe

Well there is one way to get past this roadblock that the umps are throwing our way (are they caught up in Giant Fever?) Hit 3 run homers.
You are right—Omar was safe at 2nd. The Giants are employing the sweep tag to perfection.

Heck the AB by Pence…..he was struck out 6 pitches earlier, but since these umps are determined to make our pitchers not San Fran’s work extra what the hell kind of chance to we have?

The worst thing about the DP Delmon hit into last night was the fact that he stood in the batter’s box like a sculpture by Rodin.

Almost……the worst part about it was the moron behind the plate can’t detect a fair from a foul ball! I don’t think he ran, because there was no doubt in his mind it was foul!

He thought it was foul and a heads up Posey tagged him straight away.

Bumgarner career ERA: 3.20

Porcello wouldn’t have made it thru the first with this hump.

A lot of people watching who are unfamiliar with the Tigers probably don’t realize it, but this is how we roll. At some point, the door will open a crack and we can grab control of the game.

True enough… All season…

Ump cost Fister 9 pitches that inning by screwing him over on strike/ball calls. Probably nearly 2 innings worth of pitches this game. Meanwhile I haven’t really seen Bumgarner getting squeezed AT ALL!

Yankees hitters have rubbed off on the Tigers! Strike out crap hitting bunch of bums!

These guys are driving me to drink! Tigers and the crappy Buck and McCarver!

You don’t seem to be enjoying the game…………….

I figure we’ve held on so far, we still got a chance. A good chance.

Time for a defensive replacement

I figure Doug is done now…….no thanks to an umpire who was bound and determined to squeeze him and help drive up his pitch count. Hopefully it’s not too late for our crowd to help influence these umps as these fans have.

And bullpen call. 108. A game that must be 1-0

The big guys have got to get their heads out if their butts and start living up to their overpaid contracts.

Somebody get a damn hit.

Way to go Fielder way to earn your money. He’s been brutal this post season!

Prince is not earning his salary. Well, on 2nd though, maybe he is as theoretically these guys aren’t getting paid for post-season…………………..theoretically.

Fielder career postseason:202 .296 .404 .701

Boy they’ve made another bad pitcher look pretty good. Way to grind out those Ab’s. What a disappointment these guys are.

he is not bad. 3.20 career ERa. 3.37 for the season 12. in NL. He had problems since late august but they were able to fix it

He’s been horrible this last month! Horrible these hitters of ours couldn’t hit a beach ball. I don’t care what his career is, these overpaid tigers have made a career of letting struggling pitchers off the hook.

Man… What will be Delmons excuse tonight…

Gene Lamont, thanks for your contribution. Again.

They haven’t hit all year. Why on earth would anyone think they’d start to mash in the WORLD SERIES? This is how it is. 173rd game, it won’t change now. We have to deal with it. Now win the damn game, guys.

it was time to pull Fister

Delmon! How’s the offense tonight Dude?

As expected Fister did a great job. He is an Ace

He is already SO. three strikes

Jim’s gonna leave him in there? He can’t throw a strike. Get him out.

Giving a run in the 7th. In a WS? Seriously?

Offense? We were down 1-0 so quick. You can’t blame the offense…

Who’s fault is it tonight Delmon?

These games are just torture to watch.

Another one for the greatest manager ever

How can you blame this on Leyland……let’s try the millionaires who can’t get any runs off off a pitcher whos been struggling for over a month.

Giving a run . Letting Fister too long. The rookie was squeezed take him out.

He is good. They fixed him

I don’t buy it sorry…………

Game and my fear the series over..,, yes I’ve lost faith!

Apparently JL is pretty confident. He plays the infield back bases loaded and nobody out in a scoreless game in the LATE innings????
I don’t get it. At all.
Early innings? You bet. Not then. That was stupid.
Wait till tomorrow. Wait to you hear the feedback on this going tomorrow and probably going home 0-2.
Nice offfense eh?

Gk, Leyland is also paid millions to manage this team properly. You know? Let’s not get into a useless either/or blame game again.

Well last I checked Leyland isn’t paid over 20 million a year to get hits……..I don’t agree with his every decision, but he’s not the guy hitting!

I mean NOT hitting.

I swear according to most on here they win in spite of him and lose because of him. He doesn’t get credit for anything and gets the blame for everything. It’s exhausting.

Laird is up and you aren’t PHing Avila???
What–don’t you want the LHP in with the top of thie lineup coming up in the 9th?
Leyland is not contributing tonight. IMO, it is not Smyly’s fault. That’s hope & Dream on Leyland’s part once again. The kid is, well, a kid. Hope & Dream.
A horrible decision by our MANAGER cost us athe 2nd game and our Ace cost us the 1st. Which way is Destiny pointing.
I am ashamed of our hitters. They have done this the whole damn year.

Dan & Jim say Smyly is good at holding the runner at first base.

He is a great pitcher. He will be part of the rotation. He earned it vs the Yankees. But he did not get a single call.So it was the right choice to call Dotel

I g ive up. He’s make Smyly into Cy Young no matter how long it takes or even if it’s the World Series.

Yes, leave Smyly there. Destroy the next year starter

And Fister is getting the L

OK Rich–are you serious? That was blatant managerial error.

Not sure what you’re referring to, but I think you may have mistook something I said. I was not defending Leyland.

We can still win. The game isn’t over yet.

Right on!

Not Smyly’s fault. No way. What do you expect a 21 year old to do in that situation?
This one is on JL.
And walking sandoval? Bad decision too. That was the 1st time he was hitting right-handed.
Posey is due and by that I mean “long ball” due. And now he will have 2 runners on.
Still can’t believe the Leyland stragey. He is giving up a run knowing his offense can’t produce one.

Poor Dotel cannot get a call…

Kathy, I hope your trust and positivity pays off. But I’m not feelin’ it.

Just don’t want Heartbreak Hotel tonight. That’s all. I’d be so happy if somhow, someway we win.

Not looking good.

Here we go with the pitching changes. I give up.

I didn’t think we’d get 1 much less 2. Hope I’m wrong…

We deserve this. Dotel throws an 0-2 pitch “UP” in the strike zone when you need a K or a DP?
We deserve to lose.

Its too bad the Giants don’t have Valverde as a closer.

Tigers have 2 hits, 2 walks and 1 hits batsman…..but its leylands fault hilarious.

The first Giants run was Leyland’s fault. Conceded the run…

Gene sending Prince, umps squeezing us, bats ineffective is hard to pin on Leyland.

Well Coke is for real

I thought he did looked real good a few years ago as setup man.

Leyland is directly responsible for this loss and actually both runs.

Maybe, but they can’t win without hitting, either.

No Intentional walk there.\
QB in to PH—he won’t even hit the ball.

Our pitchers dont get that outside pitch…

Nice that ump sqeezes our pitchers all night and that first pitch t berry was 10 inches of the plate ad called a strike……jerk

Bur him at the stake…….the tigers hitters get 2 hits off a pitcher who’s been struggling for a month. But crucify Jim Leyland.

That was ball 3

It doesn’t matter the umpires have made their positon perfectly clear.

Bigest adjustment for baumgarter… Face the tigers….

This game ended in the second inning.

Well, my computer froze up so had to shut it down and start over. Just like the Tigers who have looked “frozen” the past 2 days. Heartbreak Hotel.

It’s been a longs season but the fact is JL did cost them this game. I have been screaming all year about our hitting—even when we were (kind of) hitting.
It’s killed us. We were lucky to make it to the series and that was because our rotation was pitching as well as any rotation in history–not because of the hitting.
We lost because we can’t hit. 3 runs yesterday and 2 were volleyed over the fence by their center-fielder after it didn’t matter. Yesterday and today.
BUT,
JL managed poorly. You can defend him to the hilt if you will but it is abundantly clear, JL had a bad game.

First to put things in perspective, it’s October 25 and we’re in the World Series. That’s pretty cool.
We had poor hitting, which we’re used to, bad game management by Leyland, which we’re used to, horrendous coaching by Lamont, which we’re also used to, and Giants luck and pluck. We got 2 hits and both of those were erased on the basepaths. Of all this, I think the biggest disaster was Lamont costing us yet again. I’ll go into that later.

Definitely a disaster, but there were 8 other innings.

THAT was our big chance. The rest of the game played off that.

Playing the infield back in the 7th inning was totally crazy, or was that another communication gaffe like in that August game with the Yankees?

I think the biggest mistake Jim made was bringing in Smyly in the 7th instead of Coke.

Well, in his mind he had to stick with the remnants of the Formula. I didn’t mind bringing in Smyly, but it was pretty clear young Drew was a bit over his head. Conceding a run with six outs left for a poor hitting team is pretty weird.

These players have no one to blame but themselves for their pathetic offense. Making sub-par pitchers look like HOFers all of the sudden. I know it’s BS for a team that hasn’t lost in a week to play a team who hasn’t played in a week in the biggest series of the season, but this system will probably never change. We need one set of rules for the World Series, too, not this BS with no DH in the NL parks, and using it in the AL parks. The NL has the advantage every year, and Bud is too stupid to realize this. Does anyone really think that the Giants and Cards were better teams than the Rangers the last two seasons???

http://burrilltalksbaseball.mlblogs.com

The way I see it, if you have a poor offense, which we do, you manage the game accordingly. Thinking they’ll score 4 or 5 runs in the final two innings of the 173rd game of the year is not too bright.
The point about the DH rule is well taken.

Keeping in mind that Lamont made two decisions in last year’s ALCS that likely cost us two losses (out of the four), we have tonight’s play.
The Giants leftfielder is lefthanded and was picking up the ball on his throwing side before Prince reached 3rdbase. Prince is a slow runner and a poor slider. It’s the 2nd inning with no outs and we could have had runners on 2nd and 3rd. It was a series changing moment. If this was an isolated mistake, that’s one thing, but Lamont does this way too often. Your non-playing personnel should never cost you a ballgame.
I don’t mind Jim all that much, but I’d gladly sacrifice him if it would get Lamont out of the 3rdbase coaching box. Keep him as bench coach, but get him off the field.

Point taken about Lamont, though. These team should have been scouted better and things like that shouldn’t happen at this level.

Gotcha Rich. I thought otherwise becasue of ” Let’s not get into a useless either/or blame game again”
.The runs scored for us can be blamed on year-long poor hitting (and poor base-coaching) and the ones against can be blamed on Leyland.
GK and Evan, you guys are Bro’s and all but Leyland is “out of time”. The imprint of a successful manager is being invisible. Leyland has been prominent all year long with his decision making.

granted. I t may not have mattered tonight because I doubt we could have scored a run anyway..
But C’mon. Are you serious? You don’t play your infield in?. That was about as absurd a move as I have ever seen him do, under the circumstances.
It’s mind boggling. We kno wour offense is unlikely to score——what game is he watching out there?

Well I disagree on that one……..he was playing against the big inning to me it was a right decision, because if we don’t get 1 run it doesn’t matter anyway. And guess what 2 hits ain’t going to cut it. Whatever.

1 run WAS a big inning!

To be honest with you Jim, I am offended when you tell us the same thing.

In the immortal words of Jim Leyland (and Todd Bertuzzi before him) ” It is what it is”
Brilliant philosophy. It has evolved with us since we were worms in the primordial mud.
“and it isn’t what it isn’t”. That kind of defines or 3rd base coach.

Well, GK, wait till the papers come out tomorrow.

GK, if we get out of that inning we could still be playing!

Or we lose by 5 instead of 2!

Not a lot to say. This one went according to script. It’s a replay of a replay. A telling stat is Doug with 105+ in 6 innings+, and the Bummer going into the seventh with 72. Our guys do not work a count; it’s one pitch and out or 0-2, and then have to swing at anything close. It’s been around since Day 5. I am not going to defend JL, but I disagree that this was on him. Most teams with Triple Crown winners, and 23 million dollar stars, can cover two runs. Leadoff was worthless tonight. Our 8-9-1, which was up a lot was basically automatic out. I love this blog, but the back and forth on who’s to blame is a waste of time. The lack of timely hitting has been the curse of this team all year, and probably will lead to the Giants as WS winners.

1. Doug did his job as he always has. Not much different than Seattle run support last year. We’ re truly lucky to have him.
2. Drew will be a very good major league pitcher. His control was off a little, as he was thrown into the fire. This is invaluable experience going forward to next year..
3. We controlled Scutaro and Sandoval, but forgot about Pence and Blanco.

There should be some good history with Sanchez against this lineup. We are forced to take all three at home to have any chance. Can be done, but two hits a game won’t get you diddly squat. Good morning.

Greg, I was going to say many of the things you just posted but you said it much better than I could. Best post of the night!

You guys are amazing. Yes our hitters suck. And they have for the most part of the year. As a manager you have to understand, respond, and anticipate your team and it’s tendencies.
Leyland contributed to the loss today. It’s not blaming. It’s stating observable fact.
The hitting has been far worse, in terms of impact, than the managing has been. BUT, you have to manage to your team and not your dream. Every game counts at this stage and everyone knows that someone will wear goat horns. Like it or not, we don’t have a herd of horns to distribute. That claim to fame will fall on one head.
I would suggest that JL needs to show a flash of brilliance now. Not just a “Que Sera, Sera” to avoid the coronation.
This one IS on Leyland for living the dream and not recognizing what needed to be done when his team was obviously impotent offensively.

I agree about the blame game, and was trying to say so earlier. Our team doesn’t hit like they should, but at this point in the season, it’s a fact. With that fact in mind, Jim should manage accordingly. So the blame goes to everybody. Can we just agree on that?
The Giants magic is having a huge impact so far. Perhaps a day off and playing in a frigid Comerica Park will change that.
The one thing Lamont really should have done on that kind of play is move down the line towards home so he’s in a position to stop Prince if necessary. Unfortunately, Gene’s overweight state may have prevented him from doing that. I’m actually afraid he’ll get hurt out there. He really needs to be replaced and become a bench coach only.

Dan, looks like we were saying the same thing at the same time.
By the way, Gk, Jim does receive plenty of credit for wins when he deserves it, and yes, on this board. The best comments come between games, not during them.
Okay, I’ve finally run out of juice tonight. Later, all.

JL and GL will not have to worry about goat horns.
The way things are going , Prince Fielder will scoop them on that honour.

Well i saw the ump not call strikes for smyly that were touching the strike zone. Same pitch for sd got a strike call. Do that crap here in d town and im going to get ejected from the park coming unglued. Beware kids im not a pg person.

However we have a few big boys not pulling their weight at the plate.Im working my butt off working and sore from it and i have to listen to millionaires not doing their job on the radio.Next yrs season tiks may have to wait untill somebody does their job

Just a tough loss for our Detroit Tigers. Two hits. That’s not going to cut it. Miguel only batted three times. WOW!! Doug Fister pitched a great game. That was a great pitcher’s duel. Drew limited the damage in the seventh but in the end we know that nine zeroes total zero and never wins. We need to turn the page and somehow turn this series in our favor. We lost two games to two really good lefthanded pitchers. On a side note, our manager used everyone in the bullpen and all of his fourteen position players in the past two games. Anibal and Max will be our last two players to participate in the World Series. We are counting on them to pitch lights out. Can we still win this series?? Absolutely! One game at a time. Win four in a row. It has not been done often. But it has been done. Go Tigers!!

With you DOK. It can be done. Have to keep positive. But I have to agree with Rich and Dan regarding managerial mistakes. Waving Prince home was a killer. Could have been two runs that inning. Enough? Maybe. A new 3rd base coach…… please. The playing for the double play in the 7th was mind boggling. Baseball 101 mistake. Does everyone not see that? You have to play for it ALL right there. Who cares whether you lose 1-0 or 5-0? When I saw that ground ball I immediately thought OK, one out at home. But then the double play……………wow?

bats will heat up when we come home. I still expect 2 out of 3 at home.

Evan, 2 out of 3 at home won’t cut it. I could see 1-2 in Giant Land, but not both. For us to win, we must sweep at home.

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