How the waiver process works

As many have so aptly described in the comments section of a previous post, placing a player on waivers at this time of year (say, Gary Sheffield, according to an ESPN.com report) is a procedural move that teams do with several players. It allows teams to see if there’s any interest in players, and to see whether a trade is feasible. It does NOT mean that a player is about to get claimed on waivers, though they have 48 hours to do so once a player goes on there. In Sheffield’s case, a claim is not going to happen, not with Sheffield under contract for $14 million next year. The truer test would be if any team would want to trade for Sheffield, a .219 hitter whose average has barely budged since coming off the disabled list. That’s also unlikely, given that — again — he’s under contract for next year.

129 Comments

Hey, speaking of Sheffield for all his current prowess…..

Didn’t I hear one time that stupidy in all of it’s glory was defined as, “doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results?”

ooooooops…… there goes the homer……..

But sports fans, don’t be fooled. That knock every 2 weeks, still ain’t worth it. We’re NOT proved wrong by that hit

not stupidy – insanity

That homer is surely welcome …. but of course, that doesn’t change anything. Every called him great when he was, and everyone now thinks he isn’t that great, cuz he isn’t.
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The team won’t let us on into it, but anyone here an expert on batting approach ? I have a feeling that Sheff has changed his approach, just trying to hit it out of the park every time, and that may be the reason for his dismal average. I know he always had a violent, mean swing .. but it was more of a heavy smack that went for hits or HR’s. He might be just trying to hit HR’s now.

Who else did the Tigers put on waivers today? The article doesn’t say. Thanks.

Renteria Walks:
Inge should be bunting

What’s wrong with this picture?
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The team leader in stolen bases is a gimpy 32 year old who has missed 14 games.
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Curtis is not really good at getting runners in from 3rd.
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Geez–how bad is that?
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Curtis not focusing to start with. Polanco pulling the ball once more.
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Renteria watching the 3rd baseman catch the ball and STILL try for home.
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Guillen giving away an AB by whiffing again.
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The boys believe they are bad.
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We can’t hit.

Hey Dan, any idea who else was put on waivers?

Incredible. Unbelievable. $138 mil cannot buy a hit with runners on base. Don’t tell me it is because Burnett is so great. This happens with almost every Cy Young clone.

yep … we are losing to ourselves … bad bad offense .. what more can we expect from miner … going against Burnett ?

Miner’s at 103 pitches, so now it’s time for the blowpen.

Both AJ and Miner at 103 pitches after Renteria double. AJ has 65 strikes and Miner 64 …

Inge = 138 million dollar man? The only RBI hit in 2 games with a runner in scoring position. Yes, Miner matched the famous Burnett almost pitch for pitch. What’s his reward? Maybe a win and maybe a demotion to the bullpen for his success.

Isn’t it a cardnal sin to make the third out at third base?

JL never seems to understand that Zoom is very bad with inheriting runners. And then it starts going downhill ….

there we go …

like I said BLOWPEN!

Did someone say “blowpen?”

BOO!

well…Miner pitched a good game.

our pen is pathetic .. but JL needs to do his homework … How many times have we pointed out the bad bad numbers of Zumaya regarding inherited runners scoring. … Is it that difficult for him to understand?

I think Tiger fans are now officially called the Boo-gers.

great move leyland,why take out miner was he in trouble ,you manage through your ***,this one’s on you

As Dan says …. JL is a stubborn old coot …

If by some catastrophic miracle the Tigers come back to win this game, Miner should be given the win. I don’t care what the frickin’ rules say. How demoralizing something like this must be to a guy who gave his all.

good thing the olympics are on, gives me sombody to cheer on

Once again…………our bullpen lives up to its expectations!!! What more is there to say?
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***Marci***

I know the season is toast but I have to say that this outcome angered me as much if not more than any this season. Miner pitched well, and really deserved the game and the “team” found a way to lose anyway.
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Zumaya had defeat and subservience in his face BEFORE the double to Wells. Maybe that’s the advantage that we at home have over the viewpoint from the dugout. I doubt that JL was going to take him out based on body language but I sure would have.. And it wouldn’t have been Dolsi that I brough in either.
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Dolsi is is so technically inept I don’t know if he can do anything other than sling the ball towar his catcher. He doesn’t hold runners on, can’t seem to manage to throw a ball to first base, often forgets to cover the bag on a ball to the right side, does not cover 3rd when he should and tonight he lucked out at the wild pitch out at hte plate. Rios was safe but called out by the ump because everybody was too shocked that he was so far out to realize he stepped between Dolsi’s legs before being tagged high on the chest or neck.
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Sheffield hit 2 homers. Good. Maybe that will impress some GM somewhere (hopefully in N. America). The guy is still an emotional (and financial) drain on the team.
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The team is seriously dysfunctional. Inge had a decent game but (and I am not pinning the loss on him), in the 9th on a 3-1 count insteasd of taking a borderline high fastball (after all you are 2 runs down), he swings at it like he wants to yard it and pops to CF. We needed intelligent hittting and a baserunner,
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The add-on run was ridiculous. Renteria dropped that ball pure and simple. yes Joyce ran into him but Renteria was probably making like Marcel Marceau again failing to call the ball and also failed to close the glove on the ball.
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I have said this before that the team should be ashamed of themselves and they should. They are embarassing the city of detroit. Other teams leave the field in the latter innings laghing and smiling because they know these guys don’t have the jam to finish up. JL had no business leaving
Zumaya in. As soon as he faltered JL should have known that Zoom can’t pull himself out. He just can’t. He’s got 1 pitch that is about 90% as effective as it used to be. 10% in the Bigs can mean a great deal.
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The only thing I am looking forward to now is if we can offload Sheffield (Renteria would be good to go to!) or call up some eager ballplayers from the minors.
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Two different games tonight. First we had 5.5 innings of a gripping, good old fashioned pitching duel which I was greatly enjoying. Then the entire thing sank into a morass of bad play by both teams and equally bad umpiring.
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Homer call nearly blown. Inge’s attempted steal of third. Zumaya’s inability to throw a curveball. Renteria’s catch ruled no catch. Rios called safe at third. Rios going into home standing up. Rios being called out at home. Etc and etc and on………………..
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“I think Tiger fans are now officially called the Boo-gers” by dkubiak. The post of the day, we have a winner. I could understand the Sheffield booing, but now they boo everytime something goes wrong? They booed Seay? Zumaya, for heaven’s sake? I think fan behavior has disappointed me more this year than anything the Tigers have done on the field.
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Just an observation, but it seems funny that they boo Sheffield but cheer when he does something good. Either you dislike him or you don’t, can’t have it both ways. You want to boo him when he’s bad, then you boo him as he rounds the bases on his second homer of the night. Or else grow up and quit booing altogether. Maybe a few less Miller Lites are in order.
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Anyway folks, it’s a long long time until spring training of 2009. We’ll need a completely revamped bullpen and a few less former greats in the lineup, but most of all we’ll need a new manager and coaching staff. And a few less front running “fans.”
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–Rich

“Subservience” Dan? Word of the Night, we have a winner. :-) Man, I love this stuff.
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–Rich

rickray..sorry I missed your question. Was watching the game on Canadian sports network TV and not at my ususal “post”.
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I have not heard anything about anybody else being put on waivers. I’m sure there were a few as many teams do put people on then call them back if they have to. Just to test the warters and see what interest is out there I suppose.
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BTW–the Blue Jay announcers were really quite good. A breath of fresh air compared to the ChiSox cheerleaders.
They were very fair and called the game and play with more impartiality than you would expect them too. I was impressed.
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Boy not getting a run in when we had 1st and 3rd, nobody out and the top of the lineup up really hurt us. We got some after but that is a danger sign of a bad team and we have sent those signals out too too many times this year.
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I was a bit hard on Renteria on that play as Rich was right–the ump could have called him out as he did have the ball long enough to be at least debatable. Still I know the guy is a quiet as a doormouse out there on the field and I feel he did not want to call that ball.

Allright subservience may be a little mcuh—how about “submissive”?

I gotta get outta here. But one final word.
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That Minnesota sweep (in early May) after we swept the Yankees was the killer series in my mind. We had a chance after rolling through New York and couldn’t respond.

Certainly entertaining comments, amist the loss tonight.
I love the Boo-gers, and the Blowpen … that fits!

I hope the old man isn’t showcasing Zach, & going the way of Grilli,by showing he can start, as well as work out of the bullpen?
Thus the team makes room for Garcia, and Willis and later on, Porcello, in ’09? Where does that leave Rogers and Nate?

Sheff, and Rent-a-SS can go for a truckload of new Ash baseball bats in my opinion.
tbda..tbda.. th that’s all fffolks!
jim

I won’t be shocked if we end up in last place in the Central by the time it’s all said and done. You have to feel bad for Miner especially if he does this good and gets sent back to the bullpen which obviously he doesn’t want. What happened to promoting from within instead of signing a flashy free agent who doesn’t pan out?

Jason,
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Has there been any word on why Bonderman and Vance Wilson are on the 40 man roster (& concurrently the 15 day DL)?
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Would it not be an option to put them on the 60 day DL?
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If so, my impression is that then they could be replaced on the 40 man.
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If you can find some time, can you help to explain?

You’re right, Dan. It is an option, but one they haven’t found reason to use yet. In fact, by my count, I don’t think their 40-man roster is full right now. Traditionally, the Tigers have only gone to the 60-man DL option if they need the roster space, since they’d have to be restored to the 40-man at season’s end anyway if they intended to keep them (which in Bonderman’s case, of course, they do).

And will everyone just get off this kick about Zach going to the bullpen? It’s not happening, not the way he’s pitching. The odds are still against Willis joining the Tigers rotation again this season, and there’s no guarantee that Freddy Garcia gets to the big leagues unless he’s ready, and even then not until the end of the month. If Miner is still pitching well, he’ll stay in.

Thanks for the info, Jason. I know you are quite busy, and we all appreciate your staying in touch here. By the way, I was wondering if the “60-man DL” above was a typo, or if we really hit that many.
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Just kidding, but I do think it was a Freudian slip. Injuries have really hurt this team this year. If feels like we have lost sixty sometimes.
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On Garcia, I want to compliment the Tigers for taking the chance. It won’t cost them much, and who knows, the guy may ptich in the big leagues this year (I agree it’s quite a long shot) or he may decide to stay with the Tigers next year.
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It is the pitching, after all that has the Tiger under .500 again. Especially the so-called ace, Justin Verlander. I hope he can figure things out soon. I hope the Tigers can get a better pitching coach, too. These pitchers need some help.

I don’t understand they all want to boo Sheffield and hit hit to homers last night. (No I agree he has not lived up even close to expectations) However Gary Sheffield is not the reason, not even close to the reason that game was lost last night. So sick of the booing. We lost that game pure and simple because of the pen. Seay was bad, and Zumaya was even worse. And we didn’t lose it because of Edgar Renteria. I actually missed the play but frankly they already lost it by that time. Some people seem to have picked out their scapegoats. And I think that someone said it earlier and the so called “front running fans”. It almost embarresses me and I don’t and would never boo them.
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“We love ‘em but they stink”

What a horrible game, at least part of it. Great performance by Miner, wish his pitch count was a bit lower so he could have gone further in the game, as our pen is so horrible right now, about half of them are head cases. That play by Dolsi at the plate was just horrible, amazing the ump was way off on that call. I realize a pitcher doesn’t want a big collision at the plate, but he was backing away and tagging the body part furthest away from him! And the dropped ball by Renteria with Joyce running into him – back in my softball days we had to run laps after bonehead plays like that, maybe these guys need to do punishment workouts to remind themselves that a little communication goes a long way.

I split my nights now with Olympics and the Tigers – love to see the fire in the belly of the Olympic athletes – at least the ones that aren’t professional athletes already making millions for their sport!

I think it’s possible that some of the worry over Miner being sent to the bullpen stems from a general distrust of Leyland. If JL were to say “Miner’s my starter for the next five years” I doubt anyone would believe it. I’ll just say, one more time, that I’ve always thought Zach makes a better starter and leave it at that.
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I thought the Renteria play should have been ruled a catch and Edgar did a good job there. Something I’ve noticed about Joyce is his hard charging towards other fielders about to make a catch. I don’t know if he’s called these or not, but that needs work with Van Slyke.
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Zach said that 12 or 13 pitch AB from Johnny Mac cost him an inning, and that sounds accurate. McDonald fouled off ball four at least once, if not more.
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–Rich

I would have to agree to that Rich! … Jim Leyland has contradicted himself, so much this year, that even when somebody is hot, he benches him…(5 homers in 5 games or the 4 inning split between Willis and Gallarage, even after Armondo showed he had the goods to stay!), that I fear the worst for some of these guys.

My type of baseball, is the hard charging, base knocks, that advance the runners, and somebody get in at the plate.
I am not so happy about the pegs standing on the base, waiting for the long ball to bring them all in. That’s men’s “church league softball… maybe that saves injuries?, but its tiresome.
Guess its not my money, and Mr. Ilich and D Dombrowski will spend it how they wish. 9 losses in past 12 is a slide.
Cheering for them aside, possible for wildcard spot, but highly unlikely now… we just don’t have the pitching to carry us in the postseason.

Rich, GK, I agree on the booing issue…the ‘fans’ are becoming a completely different breed from 2 or 4 yrs ago. This may sound dumb, but it seems like the fans were more ‘supportive’ of the team back then. If they had a bad day, the crowd would still show support. If you were booed (and it was a rarity) it really meant something. The crowd coming today seems more and more like Yankee fans (very reactive of what is happening at that time) or Cleveland fans (hate anyone who isnt a Tiger). Listening to conversations around me, it is either people not knowing any knowledge of the team (“What, Polanco hit a fly ball…He sucks!!”) or they are their for just the 3rd-6th inning not paying attention…
Maybe I am just getting old…

Waz

Bobby Seay said last night that “booing Zumaya off the field was bush league.” Hard core fans will know there’s not much more damning a statement for a ballplayer as calling something bush league. Don’t think for a minute these guys ignore crowd reaction, or aren’t affected by it. Very few will admit it.
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When we talk of everyone being to blame, we have to include the fans. This stuff started up in the sixth game of the season.
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The real fans are still there. Sometimes during all the booing, the cameras zero in on a particular section and all I see mostly is people just sitting there quietly. It appears this incredible surge in attendance is being topped off by a less than desirable element. Hopefully this is just a one-season phenomenon.
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–Rich

Well, I had defended booing Sheffield because of his off-field comments, and even understood the frustration-fueled booing of another bullpen blow-up a couple weeks ago, but I guess I gave the crowd too much credit to know when enough is enough.

The expectations we all had at the beginning of the year obviously are not going to be met, and I’m sure the players and the coaches feel more disappointment and frustration than we can even understand as fans, so the best we can do is look to the positives, and hope this year’s debacle sparks some major changes for next year.

The good news is, this season will separate the fans from the riff raff and hopefully next year will be a different atmosphere like you said, Rich. I guess I draw the line at booing Zumaya last night- a guy who defined our magical 2006 season. I blame JL for bringing him into a situation he continues to fail in (runners on base) and allowing him to continue even when he later admits he can tell he’s not right. Joel did not deserve that treatment at all.

Believe me, my heart is broken and I am emotionally drained from this roller coaster season, but I will continue on as a Tiger fan. It’s sad- last year I had to explain to my kids that is was not okay to mercilessly heckle the other team (thanks to the drunks in our section)- this year, it’s been more about the heckling of our own guys.

-Tracey

Now, after Zoom Zoom gets his socks knocked off, JL makes a comment, that something is definately wrong and he’s not pitching like he should!!! Gee… whats your first clue? It happened to TJ , he would go out there and get nailed time and time again?
I never complained about the coaches before, but am concerned, seeing, the likes of JV & NR struggling like they have this year. Is it all in thier heads, or is it the instruction they receive.
Did anyone else notice, when CH goes out to calm down the pitcher, he just sits down, and the batter gets another hit?

Rich:

I agree. We can be critical within the blog and question things but the booing at the park is bush league. Those folks are not the true fans.

you guys are way over the top with your complaints about booing fans.
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everyone that purchases a ticket to go to the game has the right to show their displeasure with the performance on the field by booing if they so choose.
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you complain that all the booers are 06 bandwagon fans that drink a bunch of beer, don’t know anything about baseball, and aren’t true fans.
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attendence drives everything the tigers organization does. i guarantee if the tigers had a choice they would replace every single fan that goes to the ballgame and sits in their seat and watches the game quietly.. with a guy who goes their.. drinks two beers and margaritta and boos when the team underperforms.
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These are the fans that are responsible for the tigers ability to bring in Miguel Cabrera and sign him long term, sign Granderson long term, sign verlander long term. Pay Magglio, Pay Guillen.
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If you want all the booing bandwagon fans to go away then you’ll be going back to a half-empty stadium everynight.. a 60 million dollar payroll and 100 losses.

Zumaya is on the DL, they are bringing up Beltran. Jones is to be back on Friday so am guessing Beltran will go back down after that. What is the deal with so many trips to the DL for our guys?

No, I think they’re 2008 bandwagon fans that bought into the hype.
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And we will definitely have to agree to disagree on this one.
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–Rich

Zumaya on the DL is just another in a long list of questions about the pitching coach, Chuck Hernandez. HE HAS TO GO!
His record in LA and Tampa was bad. A once-promising staff here in Detroit has gone to he!!. I can remember the pitching coach under Trammell saying that this staff would mature in 2007 and they actually seemed to in 2006. Now CH has had them for 3 years and kerplunk. The injuries may or may not be CH’s fault but the rest certainly has to be. Why on earth didn’t someone know JZ was hurting before they let him blow another game? This isn’t just another day-to-day stiffness. He’ll be gone the rest of this month.

I really can ‘t imagine playing professional baseball, 1 because i am a woman, and 2 because the most people i ever played softball in front of was probably like 30 or 40 people, so I imagine it’s nerve racking. Plus, in the situation with Zumaya, JL and everyone else clearly knew he wasn’t doing well previously in situations with runners on base. why put him out there? I guess just to disappoint the fans? I’m not sure…but it certainly wasn’t a great idea.
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To me, booing is just rude, especially a Tiger…I can see if there was a horrible call and JL goes on the field to argue, in that case booing is supportive to the team…but booing a player as he walks off the field is disrespectful. AND it just makes it that much harder the next time he comes out onto the field, which now wont’ be for a while.

I totally agree about all the BOOING. It is very disrespectful and it gets you nowhere. I also agree that most of the Booing is coming from all the people that were told this was going to be the winning year and they are not true year after year fan.
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Last night when JL pulled Zumaya, Sheffield asked him if his shoulder was bothering him and Zoom said No. Why then did he go on the DL today?

Don’t care how much you pay. I pay a ton of money and have season tickets. Booing your guys is bush league. Do you think that it does a darn bit of good the next time the guy goes out??? Not that I think that Grilli was the be all end of pitchers but why do you think that it got so he pitched great on the road and not so great at home??? Its that fans started booing him like crazy. Comerica is a pitchers park. It was he was psyched himself out for pitching at home. Its no coincidence people don’t think that booing doesn’t effect them. If you don’t think so and it is constructive well your just kidding yourself??
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If you don’t like how they are playing enough that you would boo then just please don’t go to the games.

I agree about the booing, I think it’s very disrespectful. I don’t care how much you spend at the ballpark. I was at Sunday’s game and I couldn’t believe the people booing Sheff. He certainly isn’t my favorite player but for now he is still a Tiger and I don’t think he or any other player deserves to be booed in their home park. These guys have certainly been frustrating this season but they are still our team and I plan to stick by them til the bitter end :)
Go Tigers!!

Come on Tigers. This pitcher is LH and and ERA over 7.00.
Have you really folded for the year?

Well, that does it. 4-0. I guess I’ll have to find another interest. When does the new TV season begin?

I agree with the comment about Grilli and I even think that the booing probably gets to Sheff on certain nights……he is human after all.
Poor Kenny, nothing like a grandslam to take the wind out of your sails.
Let’s hope the Tiger’s can recover, but I plan to enjoy the game regardless.
Baseball Rocks

I’ll tell you who NEEDS to be booed and that is Jim Leyland.
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he has lost ‘management” of the team. Double talk, bad decisions, blind loyalty, grufff arrogance, demeaning the fans, LOSING RECORD wiath a veteran team, refusal to develop the skills of the players with potential, playing people when they are hurt, it goes on and on.
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Nothiing changes here unless this very basic change is undertaken first.
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Eckstein must have a Tiger Vodoo doll in his ball bag. Everything he does seems to start a cascade of bad events for us. He destoyed us in the World Series (remember them?) and feasts on us.
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This team just looks completely disinterested in finishing this season. Even the mentorship of Kenny Rogers is is question now.
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We can’t make changes unless Leyland is changed.

The disinterest in the players’ part is also a factor of Leyland not being able to motivate these guys. One thing for sure–he is NO chemist.

This is MLB, these guys are supposed to perform. When a guy is not consistently performing, he’s gonna get booed. You think NY and Boston would put up with the junk we’ve seen from the Tigers this year? Some of these guys would probably get showered with trash. I don’t believe in booing either, but these are professionals not HS or college kids. This is there job and when they are not giving 100%, that’s one way the fans can show their displeasure of a certain player. The Tigers have been pathetic. They deserve to be booed. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

This booing situation is totally getting out of hand! Budster, Yankee fans are the most disrespectful people out there and Red Sox fans rarely boo there own players! Look at the garbage they put up with from Manny, did they boo him? NO!!! They did’nt. They appreciate what they have. This team is totally frustrating and it sometimes hurts to even watch but to boo profressionals is absurd! I remember at the beginning of the year when the booing began, I suggested we ( the anti-booers) should follow some of these people to their places of employment and when they do something wrong, we simply start booing. My point here is to boo anyone is just absurd and rather childish! GO TIGERS -Stacy

Let’s not play right into management’s hands. We need to be unhappy with the play of this team and very unhappy with the management of it.
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Double talk, inability to oitiavte, bad strategy, refusal to use the skills of the players you have properly, playing players when they are physically impaired, blind loyalty, arrogance with fans and media, and most ofa all a LOSING record with a veteran ball team.
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Booing at the ballpark is unpleasant but it is not the issue. It is what are they doing to our Detroit Tigers.
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Nothing changes here until they chancge things at the top. I think DD may be OK but Leyland has had enough time to right the ship and will not be able to do it.
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Change the captain.

Sorry for the double post. I actually said much of that before and thought it didn’t get posted. Either that or it the onset of dementia caused by all the things I talked about!

I have nothing more to say, other than if you want to go to the ballpark and spend the evening making cow-like sounds, be my guest. Real cool.
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That was some inning. A walk, Eckstein’s grounder where he should have been called out but the umpire wasn’t in position to make the call, then a bad hop for Santiago who isn’t a thirdbaseman anyway, then a slam. Give me strength.
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I was trying to think back to when Leyland lost the team, then I realized he never had it at any time this season, not even in spring training. I’m sure the guys will still swear by him, but we see what we see. Hernandez is obviously out of his element, but I doubt he’d go unless Leyland does. I like Jim, but we could do better. Nothing wrong with going in a different direction. The wish list is a long one, but realistically, you can’t do much more than change management, try to rebuild the bullpen, and fill a couple of positional needs. That’s how I see it.
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Well, maybe we can do something after this rain delay. We still need to win some games, regardless of the standings. Let’s play some ball, guys.
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–Rich

Come on folks, I’m getting pretty tired of all these posts about bringing Zumaya in with runners on. He’s a relief pitcher–that is his job, to work out of jams. My goodness, is he only to be used to start an inning? Kinda like only using Rodney in the ninth if you have a 4 run lead? If these guys are ever going to help us, we have got to expect that they can get the big out when called upon no matter what the situation. Joel was given the task of getting one out and he just couldn’t get it done. Had nothing to do with the situation, but the fact that he’s just a one pitch pitcher. How on earth the organization can allow a guy with only one pitch to be at the major league level is mindboggling–but it’s the same one’s that promoted Wiilis from Lakeland with less than stellar outings. I’m having a hard time figuring out just what is going on with the decisions being made.

–Ed–

Stacy, there is a huge difference between booing at a Grilli, Sheff and/or the overall team compared to Manny Ramirez, who no matter what is personal issues are, continues to do nothing but put up HOF numbers and produce. Big, big difference.

I think we need a new manager, too. At this point, I don’t know. However, I do know the 2008 Detroit Tigers are underachieving.

We on here talked all winter about how the club couldn’t depend on Zumaya this season, how they needed to go under the assumption that he wouldn’t be back or, if he was, how he probably wouldn’t be the same pitcher. So what happened? They tried to get by on some inexpensive fixes in Bautista, Cruceta, et al, until the return of the Dynamic Duo, Rodney and Zumaya. And that, predictably, blew up in their faces. Just makes you shake your head, you know?
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Sheffield looked like a total jerk on that ejection.
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–Rich

So there you are in the 9th, and no Sheffield. I’ll tell ya, I wouldn’t play this guy again ever. I’ve seen enough. All of you were right. Maybe he and JL can room together down in Florida. Let’s talk bush league, Mr. Sheffield. Mr. Ilitch, Dombrowski, Leyland, they all go out on a limb for you and what do they get? Just go catch McGriff somewhere else. I’d rather play Thames even if he hit .190.
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You notice how Gaston brought in the same relievers three days in a row? This is a manager dropping the hammer down. Our guy babys his players and they get injured anyway.
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–Rich

Renteria saved his job. Inge did not. It boils down to mangement. We need new. This is a solid foundation. We will win in the coming years. Maybe not 2008, but this is still the best reality show on TV! The fat lady has not….. is that politically correct? I vote for Al Kaline with Trammel as the assistent and Rogers, the pitching coach. I will be the hitting coach. Go Tigers! –Dave

Just another loss.. no run support for Kenny. It didn’t matter it it was only one run.. they still would have lost it.
On the bright side:
Attaboy Curtis!!! Excellant seeing him on the Top 10 plays..I think he should have been tied with first…*some of us work shifts.. so I got to see highlights..er… lowlights…
Sure is nice to see someplayers are out there giving thier 110%….
From the gist of the above, I sense I am not the only one thinking something is up with bad coaching & managing!

I have given up interest on the 2008 team which is pretty sad, I don’t think that has ever happened even in the worst years. The team is run by salaries and not individual performances on the field. Dombrowski’s strategy of signing players earlier in their careers was a great strategy when players were paid a more reasonable salary. Now if you make a mistake signing a guy to a big contract, you handicap yourself if he doesn’t perform….. Sheffield, Inge, Robertson, Willis. Mr. Ilitch’s has to sell a lot of pizzas to pay Sheffield to sit on the beach in 2009 and collect $14M, but that is how it has to be.
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The team is 6 games over .500 without him and 10 games under when he plays.
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And our coach needs to go back to Baseball 101 if he thinks there is no such thing as team chemistry. Team chemistry plays a role from every division of little league to the major leagues. Anyone notice the Brewers are 8-0 since airing out their clubhouse? That should have happened in our clubhouse back in April when Sheffield should have been out at 1st on a base hit to RF for not running. At that moment, the bar was set that he didn’t have to play as hard as everyone else. Would Derek Jeter have ignored that play like our players did? Would Joe Torre have blown it off like our manager did? Where is the leadership this year?
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I personally nominate Joel Zumaya to be our Tiger to confront Sheffield, he is already injured and is a very large man.
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Speaking of Zumaya, if Leyland can say with so much confidence that he knows for sure that something is wrong with Zumaya, then why was he pitching in a 1 run game the other night. I’d rather send a donkey out to the mound. He has repeatedly put RP’s in this position this year…. Cruceta, Rodney, Zumaya. The RP who is struggling or injured the most gets to be the guy to pitch with the game on the line.
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If anyone wants some discounted tickets, let me know. I can’t make myself go anymore.

Rich, great point regarding Gaston throwing the same relievers out day after day. Another great example of JLs lack of managing skills and leadership.

Sheff has shouted from the rooftops that he is always professional. Sure Sheff, throwing the bat is professional. It was probably more a matter of him pouting because he could not accomplish banging out a couple more homers.

Rogers for pitching coach……..I am all for that.

I am sad that they have fallen apart like this, but to me not making the playoffs is less painful than it was seeing them go down in the World Series of ’06. That was brutal.

I’ll be there Saturday, cheering them on as usual.

Just another August. For some reason I really thought this year might be different becayuse they seemed like out of the break they were going to put a run together. But no.

So we have what we have. I think right now you have some gothic dysfunctionality in the clubhouse and front office and that gets manifested on the field. Folks not focused and concentrating on the task at hand. Guys not knowing if they are playing not ready to play. Etc. All documented within the blog comments.

My thought is that the organization needs a strategy to get them through year end. Rest JV, JZ, bring up the kids, start working on next year. The core of this team is still very good I think. Miggy will be there. I think Mags still has a few years left. Polly and Curtis. Inge has to get a hitting coach if he’s going to be an everday catcher. If he is at third then I think I can handle a .220 hitter because he’ll take away some hits and prove useful. Catching? I have to have some power and hitting there. Guillen probably has a few years left. He’s my DH next year with Inge at third and a new catcher (hey re-sign Pudge!). Jury is out on Marcus. Jury is out on Matt Joyce. Two streaky guys and Joyce in left field seems like an adventure. Overthrowing cut off guys, banging into folks (although Renteria has to take charge there).

Next year.

Again, no hitting to speak of and that is very troubling.
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Heard JL say something about the team not being built for speed. He is right but that doesn’t mean that you simply define yourself with the label and eliminate the running game altogether.
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There are guys that can run on the team. Granderson draws as much attention from the opposition when he is on first that theey treat him like he is Maury Wills. Funny opposing managers a afraid of his speed but he almost never steals.
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Polanco can run and is in fact a pretty decent base-runner. Same with Inge and Guillen. Sheffield is too caught up with his HR chase to much care about base-running anymore, but he was another guy who had skills out there.
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When I say running game I mean more about moving from 1st to 3rd on a base hit to RF or a bloop to CF. I mean some hitting and running, I mean advancing on throws from the OF and passed balls. These things are not being done to a major league caliber.
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Bunting seems to be reserved for .300 hitters like Granderson and Polanco while guys like Renteria and Inge are not expected to move guys over? Duh!
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Relief pitchers (who should be accustomed to pitching with men on), almost ignore base-runners. Many of them have little or no defensive ability or know when to cover a base.
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There is something wrong in Comerica Park and it starts at the top.
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I think they figured that loading this tema with talented veterans means that they knew how to play the game instinctively. They don’t. Many of these ball players are not students of the game but simply talented athletes. Once they become talented, overpaid atheletes, then you have a problem. They have to buy into a system, they have to respect their manager, they have to do what they are told to do, they have to be instructed (yearly and daily) on fundamentals, and they have to party together a wee bit as well.
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As far as I can see there is no system to buy into, they don’t truly respect their manager’s mixed messages and bluffery, they have not been instructed properly on the art of fundamental baseball and they likely believe that it is not important to care much about the other guys off-field.
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This is a team that couldn’t handle the pressure of lack of success. Management assembled a group of stars but failed to cultivate them collectivley.
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It’s been said here that this has been the most disappointing Tiger team ever. Amidst the shock, the disbelief, the misguided optimism and all, I think this is a very valid statement and one that is shared by more fans than management would care to admit.
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Some Tiger fans boo their players. A lot don’t. Some fans go to games, some don’t. We all have a right to express ourselves in our own dignified or socially inept ways as we choose. None of that changes the product on the field. At least directly. But management has to know that the fans also have a right to demand that the team they invest their money or emotions in give them a genuine effort by teaching, learning and playing the game properly.

Watching Zumaya throw these last couple/three years, is anyone surprised that he’s so often hurt? The dude has got the most painful to watch delivery around. Got to feel bad for the guy, more time on the DL than off. But, by now, brains would suggest that, this is what he is……

Good competitor. Mentally tough. DOesn’t know how to pitch, yet. And literally never at 100%.

Trade him, ASAP, once he returns. Don’t allow him to go down again, in a Tiger uniform. Cuz, he will be back on that DL…. Trade him.

Sheff is batting 5th .. even though he has the 3rd worst batting avg. in the line up, and renteria has performed well latel.
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Coupled with his latest drama … way to show him who’s boss JL.

It doesn’t seem to help for all of us to comment here except for us to get it off our chests. What is it with August and September for the Tigers? Even in 2006 when they “grabbed” the wild card, it was due to a collapse in those 2 months. This week a .500 Toronto team looks like they should be where Tampa is in the standings. Blue Jay pitchers have been well above average and their hitters get clutch hits when needed. I’ve already called for the firing of Hernandez. Now I think the hitting coach needs to go also. So we are down to the reality that if there is no change in the coaching staff, including Leyland, the Tigers will be facing the same type of year in 2009. I think the fans deserve a change just to instill some hope that a new regime will bring better results. Today Galarraga probably leaves the game behind 1-0. How discouraging, AGAIN!

G-man is throwing so well and I gotta believe the pitching we have seen lately is not as good as the results have indicated. I think it is more a result of demoralized hitters.
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Solo homeruns are minimal pressure swings. Means a lot more what you do when you see men on.
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The hungry mindset is just not there.
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Interesting we see Ordonez out of the cleanup spot today.
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G-man is just about done now. He might be able to escape the bottom of the lineup next inning but after that he really needs to be taken out. For his own good. They need to reward and nurture this guy who has been one of the only bright spots of the season.
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Can this ball club manufacture a run somehow? Will JL play small ball?
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I hope they can show some character as I think we are all starting to wonder if we have very much.

Sheffield up with a man on.
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Here comes a pop-up.

G-man pitched a whale of a ball game. If these guys have the character we hope they have they need to go out and win this one for him. That’s what teams do.
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Unfortunately you need your manager to mangage too. Joyce leads off with a hit and Jl does not have Renteria sacrifice in a 1 run game.
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Inge up now –and they may as well let him do what he likes to do, and swing for the fence, becasue Sardinha is up next! I would hope they would PH for him.

Of course JL did nothing even approaching what I though a manager should be inclined to do. No bunt, no pinch hitter (Thames is apparently available)
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I just don’t get it.
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I hope they have some plans on finding a major leage quality catcher, and that includes the ability to hit.
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Sardinha will never be able to hit. He might want to try and actually step into the pitch with a longer stride instead of the weak sister cross step he uses. Big guy no power.
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JL leaving G-man in and that is a big mistake.

Whoops a triple. JL come get him.

A ground out to short. JL put down the heater in the dugout runway and go get Armando.

Whew. Dodged a bullet there. Gutty performance by Armando. Went 8 innings and will take the loss it looks like …. unless we can “rally” for two runs.

I too was a bit bewildered when he didn’t pinch hit for Sardinah. Granderson has been robbed on a couple of hits.
Too bad that it looks like they will blow this one for Galarraga. They have mailed in the season I think.

121 pitches by AG. Absolutely amazing. I guess the way the bullpen has performed you don’t want to go to them but wow, that’s a ton of pitches. Wonder if JL gives him an extra day off like Doc Holladay got.

Vernon Wells seems to play some of his best baseball against us. All this after coming off the DL too!
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Tough break for us and for G-man on Curtis’ long fly.
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We need some
C
H
A
R
A
C
T
E
R
!

Ordonez and Cabrera. This is the time for them to do what they are paid to do.

Not that I relish the idea, but I’d like to see Miggy get on just to see whether Sheff has it in him to come through in the clutch.

Man–sure wish I was watching this game—I am in Canada and when the Tigs play Toronto MLB blosck out the ENTIRE country!!
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Cab–c’mon man come thru here!

Matt Joyce has a chance here to be hero.
Tough position to be in after the intentional walk.

Galarraga needs to give Cabrera a big hug and Joyce needs to come through here. Thought the boys were on their way to another shutout.

an intentional pass to Shef? Gaston cut a deal with JL?

OMG!!!! A clutch hit!

Check out Renteria coming through. I can’t believe it. Who does JL bring in for the 9th?

Brandon. shorten the swing. Don’t need an Earl Weaver three run homer here.

I vote for Lopez to close this one out.

Well we saw it after all. We saw some character.
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It may be a little late for this year but at least we know it’s still there.
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Nice jobs by Cab, Joyce and Renteria.
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G-man deserves this one big time.
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I haven’t seen who is warming up but I can tell you if this were tomorrow I know it would be Jones.
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Today it will be Rodney and I’m hoping it’s Rodney the Right.

You got me who comes out for the 9th. Maybe he really confuses us all and trots out Armando. My guess is Rodney.

Attaboy Brandon. OK. Inning over. The phone is ringing in my office. I think JL wants me to go infor the ninth inning. Calling for the righthander.

Whoa–an 0-2 base hit!
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No longer a save situation and I am betting that Rodney will breeze through the 9th.

Sardinha looks lost up there. Well, a nice rally for once. 4 runs enough? Toronto may just pack it in and head for the airport.

Yippee. I can’t BELIEVE they intentionally walked Sheffield. That’s the difference in the game.

Armando really deserved this.

Rodney’s throwing fastballs for strikes- good sign.

I hope I didn’t speak too soon.

One more FR. Maybe he needs to grow the dreads back.

That was some clutch two out hitting in the 8th. SHows character.

C’mon Fernando you just need one more out.

YEA!!!!!!

The Tigers win the pennant! The Tigers win the pennant! Oh sorry. The Tigers win a game! The Tigers win a game!

Well it is something to build on and whatever other cliches I can pour out.

Yes, build on it! Never mind JL saying that is only one game and tomorrow is another day. Soak it in, boys of summer. You can do it again tomorrow!

Well, I didn’t really think that they had it in them. Good for them. Funny Eric, we win one stinking game and we get all excited. I guess we take what we can get. But frankly there really isn’t any reason that we shouldn’t have one three out of four here. Obviosley the game that we blew and last night, that guy was a lefty with an ERA over 7. That should of been ripe for the picking. And today that Litcsh guy had been getting rocked.
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But I will take what I can get. I have long gotten over the idea of a post season, but I wish they would at least make games interesting to watch.

GK:

Agreed. 9.5 games out (Chisox are putting the hurt on KC). At this point we play without pennant race pressure. Beat KC simply because of what they did to us at the start of the year and last two. Hit the road to Texas and bring out the whooping sticks. We may see softball scores down there.

My goal is 81-81.

Next year lineup

Curtis – CF
Polanco – 2b
Guillen – DH
Ordonez – RF
Cabrera – 1b
TBD – LF
TBD – SS
TBD – Catcher
Inge – 3b

Bench:

Joyce
Thames
Santiago
Rayburn

Rotation:

Verlander
Nate
Armando
Bondo
Zach

Bullpen:

Seay – LH
Rodney – RH
Zumaya – RH

We’ll see what Garcia has left in and whether Porcello is ready. Have to start picking up some arms

Trade Bait:

Hessman
Rayburn
Clete Thomas

Yea…I’m really interested in seeing what Porcello can bring to the mound. Figure however that it’s 50/50 he’ll get traded for a 35 year old 3rd baseman, however.

AMAZING to see JL’s comment about how the staff disappointed. HELLO!?!?!?!?!? Dude, you mean to tell me that you’ve been around for like a thousand years……and YOU NEVER SAW THIS COMING???????? Of all the shocks this year, THAT tops em all!!!! GET OUT OF MY DUGOUT!!!!

Thanks should be given to Gallaraga, Guillen, Cabrera(who I severly criticized early on),et al for not allowing the team to surpass the 119 season. Could have gotten up there without some of the unexpected help.

The’re are 7 critical moves this organization needs to make, and it should be done sooner than later.

What I found strange in the 8th was Gaston choosing to pitch to Inge with firstbase open in a 3-1 game and Sardinha up next. Seems you’d at least force JL to make a decision. Raburn can PH, but that weakens the Detroit defense by getting Inge off thirdbase. I’ll bet Cito is being questioned in Toronto right now.
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Galarraga would have won 20 games with a good team. Rod Allen was speculating about him being shut down over the winter after he’s pitched in winter ball for years. Can’t say if that’s a good idea or not, but it does make me think of management ruining another good young pitcher.
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Anyone who couldn’t watch the game unfortunately missed a good example of why Inge should be playing thirdbase next year. You should have seen the look on Galarraga’s face when Brandon made a fine play for him. You can’t put a stat on the increased confidence that gives the pitchers. Besides, another coaching staff could probably improve Inge’s hitting immensely. He had no problem with his offense before Leyland’s crew arrived.
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Has anyone noticed how often Renteria bobbles the ball, even on plays that he succeeds in making? I swear it must be 30-40% of them. Does he have nerve damage or something? We definitely need a quicker and more athletic shortstop for the future. A .260 hitter isn’t that much of a prize, and yes, I saw him get the big hit today. Doesn’t matter in the long run.
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Sheffield is a joke up there. We may lose potential managerial candidates if he’s still hanging around. Who wants to deal with that garbage?
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Okay okay, it’s 7 months until March 15, so I’ll stop. Good to get a win. May not seem like much, but I think back to when I was a kid, going to see some pretty mediocre Tigers teams. I didn’t care, as long as they won the day I was in attendance.
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Does my role here seem to have flip-flopped over the past few weeks? :-)
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–Rich

This is really a drag having to sign in..
I was hoping that somebody would comment on Wednesday’s Detroit News article – Mr Ilitch has let front office, and Mr Leyland get an earful about how his money was spent, and the $138 million payroll…. also about Shef’s anticipated $14 mill he is locked into for 2009, and up to $15 MILLION that Tigers will have to pay Maggs for ’09 and ’10, and the writer wrote that was the best place to make the cut for the team to bring finances in line. – considering Pudge is gone, and Jones, Rogers , Rentaria being ones that possible won’t be back.
I am upset.. like what? How can somebody think like that… I had heard it before.. but if Cabbie, and Maggs stick together, they have a decent one-two punch going.. especially following Grandy, and Polanco.
Whats a team going to be like next year… you have to be kidding me..
Sounds like harsh economics, sure, fans won’t gobble up season tickets like this year, were talking a bad economy, but isn’t it like throwing the baby out in the bathwater, letting go of someone like MAGGS? I would much rather see Carlos, and Maggs platoon, between DH, and thier respective positions. Send SHef to Seattle— (sorry )
So, what team in thier right mind wants Shef? Maggs belongs in Detroit, for a few more years!
Anyone want to comment?
Jim

Detroit is set with their infield for next year. Cabrera will be at first and is the man he is paid to be. He should bat 3rd. Polanco is as good as anyone at 2B. Renteria isn’t going anywhere, I don’t know why everyone criticizes him. He’s always batting after Sheffield, of course he has no RBI’s. He got them last night only because Gaston was stupid enough to walk him. Guillen will play 3rd (I would mix in 60 games at DH too). Inge is more useful as a backup, a catcher is on the shopping list. Let Inge play C and 3B once every 3 games so he plays a little more than 50%.
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Granderson is a keeper, he does everything. Keep Magglio in RF, .320 hitters are hard to come by, I would DH him another 60-80) games. Thames has struggled, he should be released, he doesn’t have enough tools. Fill LF and Maggs RF games with the guys who perform the best from the minors (Thomas, Raburn, Joyce, Clevlen, etc.) Make sure these guys have good speed and defence.
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If Bonderman comes back, we need one SP and he must be an ace, someone better than Verlander. The money must be spent on a guy like Sabathia. That takes the pressure off JV to be the go to guy. You have a top 4 of 1) Free Agent 2) Verlander 3) Galarraga 4) Bonderman….. and your fifth starter is a battle between Miner, Rogers?, Lopez, Robertson. I would pick Miner and have the others in the pen right now.
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Oh yeah, and based on Leyland’s performance, he must go, not Dombrowski he gets to enjoy the club next year.
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Bye Leyland, Bye Sheffield, Bye Thames, Hello coach that manages the game on the field, Hello Ace Pitcher and Hello Mediocre Starting Catcher.

Bye L and Bye S is okay but Inge has gotta go, too. Nice guy, good fielder, can’t hit. Backup catcher or utility guy, maybe, but starter, no–not if you can help it. As far as Thames, he is no star, but his RBIs per AB are not bad if you ask me. And yes, I am just pulling this out of a hat, I have no statistics, but I challenge someone to find them.
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The other player you want gone is Edgar. Slightly below average in hitting and fielding is not a good thing. He’s not as bad as everyone keeps saying, but let’s play someone who is a plus, not a mild minus.
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Dan’s pretty much right, except he is crazy to suggest trading Maggs. What the heck is going through his mind. Just because he is an average fielder you want to dump one of the best hitters in baseball???
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Hello?

Here’s a link to the article moparsew referenced. Thanks for bringing that up, I hadn’t seen it. There’s some interesting things there. I suggest taking a look.
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http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080813/OPINION03/808130396/1336/SPORTS0104

Thanks for the article link. Do no, I repeat, do not, trade Maggs. I don’t care that his fielding and running is not up to par, he won the batting title last year, is hitting great again this year, maybe not as much power as before, but he is hitting and the fans love him, I think they will lose ticket sales if they dump him, the tandem of him and Miguel is just too good.

I agree, do not trade Maggs.

Carlos, Maggs and Cab are all fan favorites and should stay. Great guys, they play the game honestly and don’t complain.

I’m sure many of you will come back with reasons why they should be gone……too old, too many errors, etc. But, I stick with those 3.

Don’t have time to get into this deeply right now. Just a reminder that if you want to go after the CC Sabathias of the world, you have to clear some payroll and that could mean Ordonez.
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I’m just sayin’………………..
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–Rich

Okay, trading Ordonez is just an option, not a likelyhood or even a necessity at this point. We fans will have the guy shipped out of town before Labor Day, the way we talk. :-)
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I don’t think Maggs necessarily needs to be a DH. From where I sit, his play in RF is much better than some think. He’s intelligent, seems to get to most of the balls he should, and is very good at using Granderson’s strengths in center. Maggs runs in short steps and seems like he’s never going to get there, but he almost always does. DH may be in his future, but still down the line, IMO.
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While I’m on the subject, it seems there were many who wanted Maggs and Miggy 3-4 some months ago. Now you have it. I think giving Maggs a choice is a good way to handle it, shows respect to a solid player. I used to do that with my guys all the time. Obviously, I couldn’t honor every request but we at least would discuss it.
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As I’ve said countless times, I want upgrades in pitching and defense. With this club, that means bullpen and infield. There’s a solid core of starters that, at this point in time, aren’t terribly expensive. Granderson can anchor any outfield. We have one of the best (if not the best) fielding thirdbasemen in the game today, but we’ve got him catching. Not a good idea. They don’t need to pick up Renteria’s $8 mil option and I don’t expect them to.
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As far as trades go, my keepers are Cabrera and Granderson. I’ll listen to offers for anyone else, including Ordonez.
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What we most desperately need next year is a new management direction.
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–Rich

Rich, you and I are on the same page regarding Cabrera and Granderson. Said so a week ago in a post. I’d be very leery to see basically the same team back on the field in 2009, even if they were to land a “stud” starter. We’ve all lamented the pitching or lack of it this year. The offense, IMO, has been equal to blame. Way too many times we have been shut down by what would be considered average to below average starters. Is it just a fluky thing or is it a sign of decline? Would really like to see the club infused with some energy and a player or two with a “Youkilis-type” mentality. A fire in the belly attitude. Too many of our guys seem so passive and it just appears that it has pervaded the whole clubhouse.

–Ed–

From mlb rumors today…..for what it’s worth-

The Tigers aren’t considering trading Magglio Ordonez, but Nate Robertson could be moved this winter. Robertson seems due for a move back to the NL. He earns $7MM in ’09 and $10MM in ’10.

It may be a bit premature to focus too much on next year since we are in the midst of a winning streak, but I should clarify my stance on Ordonez.
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We need a tier 1, premier, HOF type starting pitcher. I’m sure there are a few out there who would want to toe the rubber at Comerica Park with its spacious center field—and the bonus that it is patrolled by Curtis Granderson.
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You can go the free agent route or you can make a blockbuster trade. Trading Ordonez is a way of controlling the payroll a bit. If you have an unlimited budget and Illitch will go for it then keep Ordonez. But I think if you do then you begin to cultivate him as your DH. Splitting time with Guillen here would not be a horrible idea.
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Would I trade Ordonez? Yes, for the right deal, you bet. He will be 35 years old with diminishing skills and production. I think he is a below average outfielder with a below average arm in a critical OF position. I don’t think he is the gritty, aggrressive type we need to model the younger players. f he were 32–no I wouldn’t trade him but at this stage he can be extremely valuable in terms of landing major talent and top prospects.
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gagndemo had some good points above but as to releasing Thames, I would disagree. This is another guy who has value. I don’t think we will ever see him display a full season as a starter in Detroit but he might get that chance somewhere else. Some team could really benefit from his power if they can use a RHB in the OF. He has trade value–no point in releasing him when you can get something for him.
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I think the only way we can keep Brandon Inge is if he plays 3rd and he can be counted on to hit over .260. Otherwise he is too much of an offesive drain. He can do that but he has to adjust. I don’t think he will.
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On another note, I see JL has had a brainstorm:

“For the rest of this season — and into 2009 — Leyland plans to bat Magglio Ordoñez third and Miguel Cabrera fourth.
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“Two great hitters,” Leyland said. “I’m going to get them up there more often.”
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DUH!!
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Hey Tiger Girl, it looks like management is listening to us regarding don’t trade Maggs. LOL
I agree, we need some fire in the belly here, but can’t help but think some of that might be accomplished with a new manager. Get someone the Tiger’s would respect & grind it out for. Leyland is not the guy we need next year.

I hate this trade talk when it includes my guys………I am still getting over Pudge leaving. As a female I get to emotionally attached. : (

I knew you’d like that thing about the batting order, Dan. :-)
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Amazing how JL always seems to be about four months behind what many of us think.
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BTW, I also think Inge needs to hit more in the .260 range. I also don’t think he’ll change his approach under the current regime. He hit fine for Trammell’s teams, if that says anything.
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Dkubiak, I know what you mean. Many of my guys have died of old age. :-)
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–Rich

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